cubemap and skybox questions

[state808]

Hi everyone! I cannot find any tutorials here for making cubemaps/skyboxes and I have some questions. First- if I missed it somehow, please let me know and I will be glad to read any tutorial.

First- does it matter if one uses a cubemap versus skybox for this game (are they the same?). I know one is based on wrapping the texture around a sphere and the other is a flattened cube....but does tk17  work better with one versus the other?

How does one make a cubemap or skybox? Is this a blender thing?

I know I am still a noob- so please forgive me if I am asking stuff that's obvious to many of you. I want to learn

 

My hope is to make some additional cyberpunk cubemaps for more Blade Runner scenes. So far, I have been combining cubemaps I found here with "backdrop rooms". It works pretty well, but I'd like to make my own so I can get it to look just right! One friend had the suggestion of using an h5 object (like a poster) and enlarging it to become a background. Sort of like a matte painting. I'm working on ideas with that now....but want to find out how difficult a cubemap/skybox would be?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Here is an example of the way I have been doing it- combining the "streets of steampunk" with a cyberpunk skybox:

 

 

 

[Morius]

I'm a total dumbass on answering your question, but there is one old trick I always do to create my own stuff: Check the ones already made, try to figure out how they where made and do your own.

If you already didn't, check the early christmas present that @Bbird dropped here:
 

Recently I did my first very own backdrop, but skyboxes and cubemaps are out of my league. Sorry for not be of more use. 

[state808]

8 hours ago, Morius said:

I'm a total dumbass on answering your question, but there is one old trick I always do to create my own stuff: Check the ones already made, try to figure out how they where made and do your own.

If you already didn't, check the early christmas present that @Bbird dropped here:
 

Recently I did my first very own backdrop, but skyboxes and cubemaps are out of my league. Sorry for not be of more use. 

Thank you for posting this! I didn't see this file, so I'll definitely check it out and learn from it!

[Morius]

13 minutes ago, state808 said:

Thank you for posting this! I didn't see this file, so I'll definitely check it out and learn from it!

Just opened some, like you may already know they go on Mod\ActiveMod\_hook5data\envmaps. They are .dds files, so they can be seen, modified and used as a template on Gimp or photoshop with the right pluggin. It looks like you need to provide four images for this: Front, Back, roof, floor, left and right and place them in order. Save them and rename them as you like, test them out, make the adjustments, test them again, rinse, repeat until perfection.

[Sexvision]

I have made a shit ton of cubemaps to see if i could do it. 

There is a selection in Poly haven HDRI download. I will update the file soon as i did make a cubemap for most of the HDRI in there. 

 

I made them all from HDR images using the following tools.

first you make the Cutouts to use in your cubemap. you can do this online here:

You want to leave it open so you have a reference point for stitching them back together.

https://jonaszeitler.se/cubemap-toastmap-generator/

For stitching them back together you can find the tool i used here:

https://gpuopen.com/archived/cubemapgen/

 

 

[state808]

1 hour ago, Sexvision said:

I have made a shit ton of cubemaps to see if i could do it. 

There is a selection in Poly haven HDRI download. I will update the file soon as i did make a cubemap for most of the HDRI in there. 

 

I made them all from HDR images using the following tools.

first you make the Cutouts to use in your cubemap. you can do this online here:

You want to leave it open so you have a reference point for stitching them back together.

https://jonaszeitler.se/cubemap-toastmap-generator/

For stitching them back together you can find the tool i used here:

https://gpuopen.com/archived/cubemapgen/

 

 

Whoo hoo! Thank you! I will look into this today and see if I can figure it out!

[state808]

Ok...I think I am getting this! I am going to work on it some more and perfect things/ make sure I actually understand them. I will post any of the cubemaps I make and share them with you all as well as try to put together a tutorial that can help out others.

I don't know if many people work on these? Would that be something people would have interest in?

[state808]

Posted the Blade Runner envmaps here:

 

[state808]

Here is the tutorial:

 

 

[Smoke]

On 8/17/2022 at 12:31 PM, state808 said:

Hi everyone! I cannot find any tutorials here for making cubemaps/skyboxes and I have some questions. First- if I missed it somehow, please let me know and I will be glad to read any tutorial.

First- does it matter if one uses a cubemap versus skybox for this game (are they the same?). I know one is based on wrapping the texture around a sphere and the other is a flattened cube....but does tk17  work better with one versus the other?

How does one make a cubemap or skybox? Is this a blender thing?

I know I am still a noob- so please forgive me if I am asking stuff that's obvious to many of you. I want to learn

 

My hope is to make some additional cyberpunk cubemaps for more Blade Runner scenes. So far, I have been combining cubemaps I found here with "backdrop rooms". It works pretty well, but I'd like to make my own so I can get it to look just right! One friend had the suggestion of using an h5 object (like a poster) and enlarging it to become a background. Sort of like a matte painting. I'm working on ideas with that now....but want to find out how difficult a cubemap/skybox would be?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Here is an example of the way I have been doing it- combining the "streets of steampunk" with a cyberpunk skybox:

 

Hey - been meaning to ask this but didn't have the time and I completely forgot about until I saw your new room. Not trying to be a debbie downer here but what is the point on taking the extra steps on converting a HDRI file into cubemaps/skyboxes if it will be just used as a background image. Wouldn't it better better off just using a spear and using the HDRI image?

I recall that cubemaps/skyboxes was meant for adding some kind of light source through Hook5, hence on why alot of cubemaps are pretty blurry with their quality.

[state808]

I am still learning....so my understanding is that it can be a lightsource- but does not have to be. (depends on whether you set it up to be in the hook gui).  It can also be a background image- which is what I used them for.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Wouldn't it better better off just using a spear and using the HDRI image? "

 

Again- I am just learning and, unfortunately, most likely too ignorant to answer your question. But if I can be of any help, I would be glad to.

The reason I converted them, is to increase the quality. The image would look very terrible and highly pixelated without it.

[Smoke]

1 hour ago, state808 said:

I am still learning....so my understanding is that it can be a lightsource- but does not have to be. (depends on whether you set it up to be in the hook gui).  It can also be a background image- which is what I used them for.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Wouldn't it better better off just using a spear and using the HDRI image? "

 

Again- I am just learning and, unfortunately, most likely too ignorant to answer your question. But if I can be of any help, I would be glad to.

Ah ok so it is. I'll be honest, when I first started using H5$ - I used for a mini light source and for a background but the quality was always bad and as my understanding for lights grew, I just ditched it as I started using H5 obj rooms, people where mostly ditching the cubemap light source as it was inadequate.

Sorry meant to say sphere and not spear lmao (I'll fix that)

The sphere was used for a long time. I just think that no one really understand what they had (or IF they did, they just didn't want to tell people about it - I can't really detail any reason to why to wouldn't say anything as it purely speculation. If anything, people probably understood the value of it near the end of MG but perhaps it never got around as it was chaos with during that time with that site).

But that is something I've relayed to HDiddy (as he started making room) and literally mention that with the rooms. An example of the Sphere and HDRI would be here (as HDiddy made a template for the H5Room makers to use)

 

1 hour ago, state808 said:

The reason I converted them, is to increase the quality. The image would look very terrible and highly pixelated without it.

Not sure if I fully understand you here. But by default, the HDRI files are at 8K and you can use those with no problem. I know the quality of the image degrades if you convert it to 1X, 2X and 4K. Here are some HDRI examples as I use these for a background.

I guess, if I'm following it correctly - I just see the conversion of HDRI's into cubemaps as a extra step that doesn't yield to anything beneficial if people are just going to be treating it as a background setting (aside to it just providing a soft light source).

[Morius]

8 hours ago, Smoke said:

Sorry meant to say sphere and not spear lmao (I'll fix that)

I'm following the conversation, and must admit, the spear part threw me totaly off, now everything is clear. 

I sometimes use the soft light, but yeah, H5 lights are superior althought there's room to them complement each other.

[state808]

8 hours ago, Smoke said:

Ah ok so it is. I'll be honest, when I first started using H5$ - I used for a mini light source and for a background but the quality was always bad and as my understanding for lights grew, I just ditched it as I started using H5 obj rooms, people where mostly ditching the cubemap light source as it was inadequate.

Sorry meant to say sphere and not spear lmao (I'll fix that)

The sphere was used for a long time. I just think that no one really understand what they had (or IF they did, they just didn't want to tell people about it - I can't really detail any reason to why to wouldn't say anything as it purely speculation. If anything, people probably understood the value of it near the end of MG but perhaps it never got around as it was chaos with during that time with that site).

But that is something I've relayed to HDiddy (as he started making room) and literally mention that with the rooms. An example of the Sphere and HDRI would be here (as HDiddy made a template for the H5Room makers to use)

 

Not sure if I fully understand you here. But by default, the HDRI files are at 8K and you can use those with no problem. I know the quality of the image degrades if you convert it to 1X, 2X and 4K. Here are some HDRI examples as I use these for a background.

I guess, if I'm following it correctly - I just see the conversion of HDRI's into cubemaps as a extra step that doesn't yield to anything beneficial if people are just going to be treating it as a background setting (aside to it just providing a soft light source).

 

OK, I think I understand a little better. But if not- just know that I would defer to people who have done this much more than I have   - @Sexvision knows a lot about this topic!

 

I am not converting any HDRI's at this time. I was only working on screenshots from Blade Runner. Many of these needed "help" so I needed to convert them to an HDR type of format to boost the light and dark so the overall image was clearer. I don't think you'd need to do that with those higher quality images you're referencing. Just the screenshots.

 

In terms of the sphere- my understanding is that a cubemap is mapped over a sphere, but in a cubic format. I know there is some way to make one that wraps differently around the sphere- but this is the only format I learned so far. But wow- I would love to learn if you know how?

 

For the lighting- this is an interesting part to me! I would still use spotlights and not use this as a replacement for that. My understanding is limited- but you will get an overall color of light from the image (almost like a filter or gel in stage lighting) and you will also get that image in any reflective surface. That's how I made this image:

 

That image (of the cityscape), is a screenshot from the movie and then I used it as the skybox so I could get it to reflect in the eye. For me, it was important to get this as an "actual" reflection and not as a post processing thing- and this was the only way I could think of to do it.

I wanted to make Blade Runner images, and that led me to finding backgrounds. Once I saw what could be done with backgrounds, it gave me the idea to try to make specific kinds of backgrounds and that led me to this. And then this opened up pandora's box- hahaha! And connected me to @Sexvision- who has graciously taught me more.

I don't know if this speaks to what you're asking? Some of it seems like you're trying to decide what is worthwhile. For me- this has all been an experiment and a learning process- so if you ask me in some months or a year if I would do things this way, it may drastically change as I learn more. You already are so far ahead that you may recognize much better what is worthwhile and I'm always glad to know your thoughts. 

 

I don't know- does that help clarify at all?

 

 

 

[Sexvision]

Ok i scimmed throught the conversation and here is what i think:

We did some testing on HDR images for the Polyhaven room to bring light in from the HDR image using specmaps. This did work but needed a lightsource to get it to work.

Sadekhnd made a hook 5 Dome object that was not a sphere to correct the image a bit. It was based on Hdiddy's sphere dome with the plus we can move the dome as its a hook5 object.

While testing this i also made the cubemaps for every polyhaven HDR image we used. This so we can use the cubemap as a actual cubemap that will bring light in the scene and it will be the same as the dome. This also worked and we did not need a lightsource anymore. But in that way i was cheating a bit as the light did not come from the HDR image directly. Kreagars vision was to use the HDR image with a lightsource using auto cubemap. So that is what the polyhaven rooms are.

I used the 8k polyhaven HDRs to make the cubemaps. 

 

In hook you can use Cubemaps in two different ways.

1. You can set it up like a cubemap so the colors of the cubemap will be used for building the light info. (this will bring light in your scene but also the reflections of the cubemap)

2. Or us it as a skydome. Skydome like Smoke said are a bit more blurry but also have the option to make some corrections in the hook GUI to fix. (This will not bring light in the scene)

What i mean with bringing light in your scene is that the render engine will pick up light info from the boundbox. a Skydome does not do that even if its showing.

 

What State808 did was using a non HDR image and make it into a HDR image to create light info him self. He did this by overlaying dark and light exposures on top of the regular image. That is what a HDR image actualy is. A bunch of images with different exposure settings.

After that he made it in to a cubemap that can be used as a cubemap (for the reflection in the eyes) or a skydome. Something i think is very impressive.

 

So to anwser the question:

Is there a easier way to create a skydome. Yes Smokes way is the fastes.

Are there benefits to make a Cubemap. Yes you can use them in two ways.

So to State808 and Smoke you are both right.

[Smoke]

@state808 ah ok, so you made a custom cubemap. No simple process so congrats. But I get a better understanding on the thought process.

[state808]

10 hours ago, Smoke said:

@state808 ah ok, so you made a custom cubemap. No simple process so congrats. But I get a better understanding on the thought process.

Thanks @Smoke! I'm glad both you and @Sexvision were a part of this conversation. It's true that making those cubemaps is sometimes a challenge- haha! Thanks for saying that.