Custom bodies - a problem

[thrace]

First off, I respect and appreciate the continued attempts to breathe new life into an old and noble game. But I have a problem...

 

I (like many people on here judging by the screenshots) use default bodies. For me, this is because:

 

(a) they fit the vast majority of legacy content

(b) they look pretty good - not perfect, but good

(c) posing is far easier as most poses are created with them

(d) they don't crash the game

(e) I want a simple life free of a million morphs.

 

As a result of this, I'm finding that most of the new addons are basically unusable due to the reliance on specific custom bodies and morphs. I've downloaded so many and instantly deleted them due to clipping issues on default bodies that even the supplied morphs can't fix.

 

For those where the morphs do work, having to reload them on every single model, every single time due to the limitations of the game, makes the process unworkable. 

 

I understand that people making addons have every right to use their preferred bodies etc, but we're at a point where the new stuff being made - the best stuff - is essentially incompatible with the base game and of little use to a lot of users.

[Daedalusxxx]

Yeah I agee to some extent. I use a custom body made with Xbody and most clothing won't fit snuggly without some adjustment. At times I just leave them as is, it doesn't bother me that much if there is a gap somewhere but I try to hide them as best as I can when taking shots. I do use morphs where available, it would be nice if more clothing modders would add morphs to their clothing so you don't have to adjust the body to fit the clothing. Sometimes the adjustments required are so extreme that they deform the body, like minimal feet to fit some shoes and stuff like that. But I do understand that it's potentially a lot of extra work so it would be more of  a 'nice-to-have' kind of a thing. On the other hand, adding stuff like that is to me the mark of a dedicated modder. Just some thoughts.

[Smoke]

As mention by Daedalusxxx, use XBody by HDiddy (https://www.klubexile.com/files/file/2390-xbody-female/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-11605)

If you haven't noticed, I still make clothing items based on the default body. But others are using Female body V2 as their primary body mod. The reason is simple, its one of the best sculpted body out there.

To explain, I use Xbody 1.5 by HDiddy and use the "default" slider to morph the body back to 'default'. Assuming you find a clothing mod that is interesting, you can use the sliders to morph the body to Female Body V2 (FBV2). Honestly its that simple.

Personally, Xbody is the swiss-army knife. No need for any other body mod out there. Plus I helped make certain PE morphs for that body - around the throat area (deep throat), better Mouth sliders (wider and better in terms of being even), cheek sliders, etc.

Also - for a brief moment, we were using "Xmorphs". But it is phased out, it is highly recommended that you revert back to default setting (assuming you installed it). By the sounds of it, you did install it - just so you know XMorphs was creating performance issues, similar to what you described. Not trying to toot my horn here but I've yet to experience a crash or any slowdown from Xbody or and addon that has morphs. I have experienced crashes when I tried loading old un-optimized rooms or have a ton of toys that are un-optimized.

As for morphs, personally I won't make something without morphs. If the assets has morphs, I will install it. IMO it makes the addon better by giving the users the ability to change the style of the addon or you can create unique poses/animation.

 

37 minutes ago, Daedalusxxx said:

I do use morphs where available, it would be nice if more clothing modders would add morphs to their clothing so you don't have to adjust the body to fit the clothing. Sometimes the adjustments required are so extreme that they deform the body, like minimal feet to fit some shoes and stuff like that. But I do understand that it's potentially a lot of extra work so it would be more of  a 'nice-to-have' kind of a thing. On the other hand, adding stuff like that is to me the mark of a dedicated modder. Just some thoughts.

Personally this is where people will either scratch their head and understand, or will be annoyed. Like you said, its more work. So will people notice? Or will they just "leech" and not give a thanks or a solid user review.

I tried to make my stuff as flaw less as possible it its pretty annoying just seeing that people will download, enjoy it, and will not say anything positive about it. But the smallest issue that they have, they'll complain about it. That said, I've taken the road of just "pleasing" myself. That is something I tell others, to just please themselves. Don't do it to please others as many times, you may not be satisfied with the reception.

Don't get me wrong, there are positive vibes out there, but it would be more productive if there is more interaction.

[thrace]

1 hour ago, Smoke said:

As mention by Daedalusxxx, use XBody by HDiddy (https://www.klubexile.com/files/file/2390-xbody-female/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-11605)

If you haven't noticed, I still make clothing items based on the default body. But others are using Female body V2 as their primary body mod. The reason is simple, its one of the best sculpted body out there.

To explain, I use Xbody 1.5 by HDiddy and use the "default" slider to morph the body back to 'default'. Assuming you find a clothing mod that is interesting, you can use the sliders to morph the body to Female Body V2 (FBV2). Honestly its that simple.

Personally, Xbody is the swiss-army knife. No need for any other body mod out there. Plus I helped make certain PE morphs for that body - around the throat area (deep throat), better Mouth sliders (wider and better in terms of being even), cheek sliders, etc.

Also - for a brief moment, we were using "Xmorphs". But it is phased out, it is highly recommended that you revert back to default setting (assuming you installed it). By the sounds of it, you did install it - just so you know XMorphs was creating performance issues, similar to what you described. Not trying to toot my horn here but I've yet to experience a crash or any slowdown from Xbody or and addon that has morphs. I have experienced crashes when I tried loading old un-optimized rooms or have a ton of toys that are un-optimized.

As for morphs, personally I won't make something without morphs. If the assets has morphs, I will install it. IMO it makes the addon better by giving the users the ability to change the style of the addon or you can create unique poses/animation.

 

Personally this is where people will either scratch their head and understand, or will be annoyed. Like you said, its more work. So will people notice? Or will they just "leech" and not give a thanks or a solid user review.

I tried to make my stuff as flaw less as possible it its pretty annoying just seeing that people will download, enjoy it, and will not say anything positive about it. But the smallest issue that they have, they'll complain about it. That said, I've taken the road of just "pleasing" myself. That is something I tell others, to just please themselves. Don't do it to please others as many times, you may not be satisfied with the reception.

Don't get me wrong, there are positive vibes out there, but it would be more productive if there is more interaction.

Hi Smoke, yes I've got a few of your new addons and they are great additions to the game - and they actually work on my defaults.

As I've said I appreciate the innovations that have been made, people are really working their socks off. But I've found those innovations to be largely counterproductive for me. For instance, if I understand it correctly, xbody has no support for anything beyond male and female. Also, I don't really want to mess about with sliders to get things back to default. Messing with bodies also messes up my poses, and I don't want to have to reload morph settings on every new screen. It's just too much faff.

I've never used xmorph, as I could see it was a mass of options that would overwhelm. But then I'm for simplicity.

As for no praise for perfection and moans for minor faults - that's human nature, and it's amplified on the internet. You can't change it. 

I realise that this thread could be seen as a moan. To an extent it is - but not one that is intended to piss on the chips of the very dedicated people and their creations, more a note from me saying that damn! those addons look great... shame I won't be able to use them!

 

[Daedalusxxx]

I think it's ok or even good to voice your concerns, as long as it's done in a constructive way, which you have done. Stuff like this gets people thinking and may yet fuel some new innovations . Time will tell.

[x17]

I understand what you mean ... unfortunately, its not so simple. It would truly be ideal to have everything practical and easy in Pose Editor, but not everything could be modded in because we dont have the source code. But - maybe there are things that could be modded in, yet they werent fully realized in proper ways back then. People already pointed out the high usefulness of XBody - and truly it is great.

How I see "ideal PE" ? In general, using key shortcuts to link to certain buttons speed up things ... however, the old GUI is a problem on its own. The ideal GUI within PE would not be a static element with bunch of buttons and sliders, but very dynamic elements that could be hidden/unhidden easily and where majority of screen would be utilized. Also, the model / body itself in such case would have its interactive manipulators outlined clearly and even GUI elements that pop up on selection. Unfortunately - we do work here with game thats now almost 2 decades old. At its core, ofc.

As for bodies, seems to me like auto-triggering and joint corrective morphs are the key for many things. But they still dont and wont be able to everything "auto-magically" for you. This would be mainly to fix joints that are impossible to be fixed fully with proper weights (only improved). So, one would still need to use morphs. BUT - there needs to be a clear understanding between morphs that could be put in Customizer only ... and those that should be used in PE. One doesnt need them in both places (well, maybe some very rare exceptions could be used in both)

So, we can put it like this, for a best results, from what we can currently have in game : 

- first and foremost, a body with good topology. The default vanilla body looks relatively good subdivided, but head is BAD. Bad topology there, rough distortions on face using default morphs - but even making custom morphs for face would yield bad results. So, the body needs to be redone / "restandardized". This was already done by some folks, and Im doing my own body now.

- secondly, capabilities to change and modify armature - seems only hfg2's work around it so far had results. The default armature is insufficient, altough not absolutely bad.

- the modified armature or different armature requires new weights - weighting is absolute pain in the ass for anything. But for something like new armature and new body, this requires a LOT of work and learning, often by trial and error. Far from simple.

- after all this is done - so, we have new body mesh with new topology, we have new armature of slightly modified armature, and we have new weights or modified weights for body ... then we can start thinking about morphs. Firstly, we should think about JCMs or Joint Corrective Morphs for body. Weighting isnt possible to fix the ugly joints, JCMs are capable to fix that. What are the JCMs exactly ? Imagine the auto-corrective / auto-triggering morph that activates when certain bone of armature is moved in particular direction or rotation. This means, for example, that knee joint would look drastically better and more realistic with JCMs. Otherwise, even with best weights, it would still look "like youre bending a hose" at some poses. Note that if body uses JCMs ... then the clothing for it should also adapt to any JCM - so it should be used for every asset conversion for full and proper fitting.

- and even after JCMs are done and everything else ... then we can start thinking about additional specific morphs. Majority would go into Customizer where body is morphed, but those morphs arent used in PE animations. In sense - that theyre used on body, the look still changes even in PE with those morphs, but the morphs arent used directly from PE to simulate a certain animation or movement of body. Then we have those morphs - which are used directly within PE.  I personally think people should be careful about not putting too many morphs onto anything for PE - regardless of that, theyre even limited in number.

How I see the future of TK17 ? 

Like this - I see future in DAZ bodies and maybe some particular bodies from elsewhere. It requires a lot of work, though. Hfg2 and 3Dmanzone already made some G3 conversions. There is a small difference between G3 and G8 DAZ body (Genesis 3 and 8 bodies) , so its more about "pool" of assets behind them in DAZ that could used in TK17. Still, everyone must remember - we dont use the same armature on those bodies like we use in TK17, it would require MASSIVE remake of everything, and even then it would become impractical with too many bones and manipulators. So we need to keep it simple with default TK17 armature and modify it. This means those bodies also dont use the same weights nor the same JCMs like ones in DAZ - so all of this needs to be remade for TK17. Only the body mesh is used.

I also see future in dynamic morphs overall. In custom particle effects. In future hair particle shape keys, which hypothetically should be able to utilize just few hairstyles which could then have their own morphs to shape any other hairstyle. I see future in using inertia on some other assets rather than just body. And... I see future maybe even in using and reworking H5 collision boxes into something different ...

Sorry on a bit lengthier post - but I like to put all my thoughts about this game ...

[Daedalusxxx]

Nice to see those things mentioned, the joint deformation has been driving me crazy (bending-a-hose-effect). I started using sexvilla 3D back when it released as a porn game, now the potential for it has evolved into so much more. Interested to see what the future holds in store for it. A quick note on the topic of future releases; as I understand it from reading various forum posts, 64-bit is something that has been looked at. Even if the performance gains were minimal, the memory handling of 64-bit would be great. I constantly get crashes running out of memory. I have 32 gigs of ram but the program can't from what I understand use more than 4. Loading a singlle customized skin character into pose editor eats about 1.4 gigs atm. A bit off topic but I thought I'd mention it.

[thrace]

1 minute ago, Daedalusxxx said:

Nice to see those things mentioned, the joint deformation has been driving me crazy (bending-a-hose-effect). I started using sexvilla 3D back when it released as a porn game, now the potential for it has evolved into so much more. Interested to see what the future holds in store for it. A quick note on the topic of future releases; as I understand it from reading various forum posts, 64-bit is something that has been looked at. Even if the performance gains were minimal, the memory handling of 64-bit would be great. I constantly get crashes running out of memory. I have 32 gigs of ram but the program can't from what I understand use more than 4. Loading a singlle customized skin character into pose editor eats about 1.4 gigs atm. A bit off topic but I thought I'd mention it.

Yeah no Hook support for 64 bit, the native gfx displays are noticeably better than OpenGL on VX but several years behind Hook 5 standards

The main point I am trying to make re: "custom bodies - a problem" is that I'd wager the vast majority of users stick to the default - so things that are made for non-default bodies are basically off limits to them, and morphs to get them to fit default bodies are a faff and have to be reloaded every time you start a new game.

[x17]

1 minute ago, Daedalusxxx said:

Nice to see those things mentioned, the joint deformation has been driving me crazy (bending-a-hose-effect). I started using sexvilla 3D back when it released as a porn game, now the potential for it has evolved into so much more. Interested to see what the future holds in store for it. A quick note on the topic of future releases; as I understand it from reading various forum posts, 64-bit is something that has been looked at. Even if the performance gains were minimal, the memory handling of 64-bit would be great. I constantly get crashes running out of memory. I have 32 gigs of ram but the program can't from what I understand use more than 4. Loading a singlle customized skin character into pose editor eats about 1.4 gigs atm. A bit off topic but I thought I'd mention it.

Unfortunately - not so great, regarding the 64-bit version. This is from people who used SV2 64-bit version latest update, which is basically a core for VXI. The problem with it is, the main issues (memory leaks) arent resolved with 64-bit and the gain is not significant as it should be. Even worse, the new 64-bit version means that H5 would be completely incompatible at release, meaning one couldnt use the H5 (or any other HOOK) with it. This would reduce visuals of that new version drastically back to vanilla look, which 90 % of community wouldnt use at all.

We here on KE, we focus only on upgrading the current VX P version - expanding and extending with mod addons where possible, and maybe developing in directions where we can. This version is fully compatible and working without any problems with H5.

This is the situation ... the 3X aint gonna release a new update for SV2 to fix memory leaks or any other things or additions. The game wont develop from their side. There is no source code available to public, meaning the other team (that makes VXI) will be capable only to make as much as SV2 latest update allows. And that will break the compatibility with H5, what I said above. So, to me ... without source code, I dont think drastic performance changes are possible.

[x17]

Heres what can be done and something that was already done - aside what I mentioned above : 

- improved GUI - already did this. Possible to expand onto visuals, its not possible to satisfy everyone with one same GUI, so more variants should be made. The old vanilla TK17 GUI looked horrendous. There are maybe capabilities to enlarge some UI elements or even make new ones, but this is still relatively a murky water. Will see what I can do about it further. Im eyeing to merge or remake few categories in customizer that noone uses (like for example, Combo category which only has 1 single asset and could be utilized in much better way for some other things ... )

- optimization of assets - this is something that was done to extent, but could still be improved onto. Some older assets should be redone and optimized. Why do the CtDs happen with some assets more often ? Its not just complexity of asset (if too many polys and vertices) but its also potentially if assets didnt have its doubles cleaned (or "merge by distance" option in Blender 2.8+) ... this means vertices would be very close overlapping and could potentially cause CtD. Or, for example, too many textures ... too many draw calls ... which hogs down the performance drastically. So, it requires either rework of old assets - or port of new ones, but all should be optimized.

- completely obsolete assets, at least from my POV. Vanilla assets are primarily in that category. The "team" even "optimized" these assets - but they actually reduced the usefulness of them even lower. IMO, there is no point to have multiple shirts or skirts that are some low-poly mesh and that have blurry undersized texture. This is where our dynamic morphs used in customizer step in and shine - one could use multiple morphs to make one better asset morph into many variations.

[Daedalusxxx]

I thought as much, was still hoping. Anyway, getting back on topic I agree with thrace about the bodies. The basic problem persists even with things like Xbodies; there are a ton of content made with a customized model and I've skipped using some great content due to the fact that it won't conform or requires a crapton of work to make fit properly.

[Daedalusxxx]

8 minutes ago, x17 said:

Heres what can be done and something that was already done - aside what I mentioned above : 

- improved GUI - already did this. Possible to expand onto visuals, its not possible to satisfy everyone with one same GUI, so more variants should be made. The old vanilla TK17 GUI looked horrendous. There are maybe capabilities to enlarge some UI elements or even make new ones, but this is still relatively a murky water. Will see what I can do about it further. Im eyeing to merge or remake few categories in customizer that noone uses (like for example, Combo category which only has 1 single asset and could be utilized in much better way for some other things ... )

- optimization of assets - this is something that was done to extent, but could still be improved onto. Some older assets should be redone and optimized. Why do the CtDs happen with some assets more often ? Its not just complexity of asset (if too many polys and vertices) but its also potentially if assets didnt have its doubles cleaned (or "merge by distance" option in Blender 2.8+) ... this means vertices would be very close overlapping and could potentially cause CtD. Or, for example, too many textures ... too many draw calls ... which hogs down the performance drastically. So, it requires either rework of old assets - or port of new ones, but all should be optimized.

- completely obsolete assets, at least from my POV. Vanilla assets are primarily in that category. The "team" even "optimized" these assets - but they actually reduced the usefulness of them even lower. IMO, there is no point to have multiple shirts or skirts that are some low-poly mesh and that have blurry undersized texture. This is where our dynamic morphs used in customizer step in and shine - one could use multiple morphs to make one better asset morph into many variations.

Thank you for the clarification. There's a bit of new info in there too, at least for me.

[thrace]

18 minutes ago, x17 said:

Heres what can be done and something that was already done - aside what I mentioned above : 

- improved GUI - already did this. Possible to expand onto visuals, its not possible to satisfy everyone with one same GUI, so more variants should be made. The old vanilla TK17 GUI looked horrendous. There are maybe capabilities to enlarge some UI elements or even make new ones, but this is still relatively a murky water. Will see what I can do about it further. Im eyeing to merge or remake few categories in customizer that noone uses (like for example, Combo category which only has 1 single asset and could be utilized in much better way for some other things ... )

I'd say this was near the top of the to do list. VX was left as an unfinished mess of options, many of which don't work, while others are just confusing. 

18 minutes ago, x17 said:

- completely obsolete assets, at least from my POV. Vanilla assets are primarily in that category. The "team" even "optimized" these assets - but they actually reduced the usefulness of them even lower. IMO, there is no point to have multiple shirts or skirts that are some low-poly mesh and that have blurry undersized texture. This is where our dynamic morphs used in customizer step in and shine - one could use multiple morphs to make one better asset morph into many variations.

I'd pay someone to wipe every single default clothing asset. They're mostly hideous - I don't use a single one. 

[x17]

17 minutes ago, Daedalusxxx said:

Thank you for the clarification. There's a bit of new info in there too, at least for me.

Also the most visual "magic" if we could say it like that, comes from H5 itself, dynamic lighting and PBR textures it uses. So, one could put texture work like this - but only in case if we use H5... if someone uses vanilla graphics, they will need to use old obsolete ways of texture making : 

- diffuse / base texture should truly be a simple base color tones, maybe with some details here and there - but nothing truly too overboard. So, the diffuse texture could be lower res - because it has just base colors and tones. The normal map should be higher res because its used for various small details and imperfections, the specular map could be soemwhere alongside smaller size of diffuse one or even smaller, because its required only for reflections and glow. So we try to optimize this and put less burden on performance by only having normal map at higher res and size.

- the H5 files should be in DDS format for GPU "consumption". More optimized than PNG, which should be used for storing and editing, because its lossless. Something like DDS 8888 compression will be perfectly enough and will alpha channel for transparency. If you dont have alpha channel (like in DXT1 compression) then the transparency wont work.

- txf files are also used for transparency

- ALL textures in any assets should be reduced in number as much as possible ... so as less textures in number as possible, especially for rooms. Keeping them in 1-5 for standard clothing, and rooms in 5-30 could be optimal. UVmap anyways needs to be redone in such cases.

8 minutes ago, thrace said:

I'd say this was near the top of the to do list. VX was left as an unfinished mess of options, many of which don't work, while others are just confusing. 

I'd pay someone to wipe every single default clothing asset. They're mostly hideous - I don't use a single one. 

I think some categories should be remade. The above combo I mentioned - I do have some plans around dynamic cumshots and liquids in game, and this category would be ideal for it as its the topmost in dress category. There is only one asset in this whole time there. Also, several bondage categories ? I think unnecessary ... but will try not to go overboard, and just modify the necessary ones. There was and is truly a mess there ... not exactly organized properly, IMO.

I honestly dont use ANY vanilla assets. I could, for example, rip out some of them and properly modify in Blender... by subdividing them and applying proper higher res texture to look good ... but theres not much point as I have better resources from other places to convert. I think maybe just those vanilla platform heels could be useful to be remade. Maybe some other assets, too ... but as you said, I think it could maybe be even better without bunch of vanilla assets. Still, theyre there just so others who use it, wouldnt complain about it. So, if I go that direction, it would probably be some kind of "repack" of game, truly.

 

[Daedalusxxx]

42 minutes ago, x17 said:

Also the most visual "magic" if we could say it like that, comes from H5 itself, dynamic lighting and PBR textures it uses. So, one could put texture work like this - but only in case if we use H5... if someone uses vanilla graphics, they will need to use old obsolete ways of texture making : 

- diffuse / base texture should truly be a simple base color tones, maybe with some details here and there - but nothing truly too overboard. So, the diffuse texture could be lower res - because it has just base colors and tones. The normal map should be higher res because its used for various small details and imperfections, the specular map could be soemwhere alongside smaller size of diffuse one or even smaller, because its required only for reflections and glow. So we try to optimize this and put less burden on performance by only having normal map at higher res and size.

- the H5 files should be in DDS format for GPU "consumption". More optimized than PNG, which should be used for storing and editing, because its lossless. Something like DDS 8888 compression will be perfectly enough and will alpha channel for transparency. If you dont have alpha channel (like in DXT1 compression) then the transparency wont work.

- txf files are also used for transparency

- ALL textures in any assets should be reduced in number as much as possible ... so as less textures in number as possible, especially for rooms. Keeping them in 1-5 for standard clothing, and rooms in 5-30 could be optimal. UVmap anyways needs to be redone in such cases.

I think some categories should be remade. The above combo I mentioned - I do have some plans around dynamic cumshots and liquids in game, and this category would be ideal for it as its the topmost in dress category. There is only one asset in this whole time there. Also, several bondage categories ? I think unnecessary ... but will try not to go overboard, and just modify the necessary ones. There was and is truly a mess there ... not exactly organized properly, IMO.

I honestly dont use ANY vanilla assets. I could, for example, rip out some of them and properly modify in Blender... by subdividing them and applying proper higher res texture to look good ... but theres not much point as I have better resources from other places to convert. I think maybe just those vanilla platform heels could be useful to be remade. Maybe some other assets, too ... but as you said, I think it could maybe be even better without bunch of vanilla assets. Still, theyre there just so others who use it, wouldnt complain about it. So, if I go that direction, it would probably be some kind of "repack" of game, truly.

 

Interesting. Yeah, I exclusively use Hook5 paid myself. I couldn't work without it. It brings so much to the table. I don't use vanillla assets, they're pretty hideous. I've disabled everything vanilla through optionsman already. There's enough content out there to build up a new library of things to use. When people discover sites like this, I think they move away from them vanilla assets pretty quick. Thanks for the pointers on textures. I've done my fair share of texture work so PBR textures are familiar but I'm no expert. I would say proficient . Gotta love them, what they can do if done properly.

I feel I have to apologize to thrace for hijacking the thread a bit by going off-topic and keeping the discussion going. Just shared a few thoughts since x17 gave some pretty interesting info about the game.

[thrace]

50 minutes ago, Daedalusxxx said:

I feel I have to apologize to thrace for hijacking the thread a bit by going off-topic and keeping the discussion going. Just shared a few thoughts since x17 gave some pretty interesting info about the game.

No it's all fine. The forums are mostly dross so it's good to have a bit of in-depth discussion, whatever tangent it heads off on.

[HDiddy]

For the most part there is only a few of us consistently pushing out clothing mods.  @Smoke, @Euphie, and myself.  Some others have put some stuff out but these days it pretty much the three of us.  When you break down our preferences. Smoke uses Default Body with body sliders for FBV2, Euphie uses FBV2 straight, and I use FBV2 with Body Sliders for about 10 Bodies.

I personally do not understand why that could be so problematic for you because you can simply use Smoke's clothing or you can use a slider to modify the other clothes for your needs.  Not sure what specific new add-ons you are referring to but for mine they are not dependent on any one body.  If using morphs is too much work for you...welll.....unfortunately we cannot help you there.  In the end we do this for ourselves and not for any one or more specific users.  I really do not understand your statement of "Incompatibility with the base game"  as it seems your notion for saying this is because it doesn't work exactly the way you want it to work. Which ends up being a preference issues not an incompatibility issue.

Hey...this is why I started modding.  I wanted things they way I liked them because nobody was going to meet my specific preferences.  So I encourage you maybe to learn how to start modding so you are simply not dependent on anyone else.

 

[Daedalusxxx]

In my experience you'll have to get your hands dirty at some point to get exactly what you want. I usually modify stuff in some way to suit my needs. Nothing major so far though.

[thrace]

3 hours ago, HDiddy said:

For the most part there is only a few of us consistently pushing out clothing mods.  @Smoke, @Euphie, and myself.  Some others have put some stuff out but these days it pretty much the three of us.  When you break down our preferences. Smoke uses Default Body with body sliders for FBV2, Euphie uses FBV2 straight, and I use FBV2 with Body Sliders for about 10 Bodies.

I personally do not understand why that could be so problematic for you because you can simply use Smoke's clothing or you can use a slider to modify the other clothes for your needs.  Not sure what specific new add-ons you are referring to but for mine they are not dependent on any one body.  If using morphs is too much work for you...welll.....unfortunately we cannot help you there.  In the end we do this for ourselves and not for any one or more specific users.  I really do not understand your statement of "Incompatibility with the base game"  as it seems your notion for saying this is because it doesn't work exactly the way you want it to work. Which ends up being a preference issues not an incompatibility issue.

Hey...this is why I started modding.  I wanted things they way I liked them because nobody was going to meet my specific preferences.  So I encourage you maybe to learn how to start modding so you are simply not dependent on anyone else.

 

As I have said - addons often do not fit default bodies. Spending forever working the morphs out, and then reloading them every time I open a new game is a chore I could do without. That I would wager is the situation for many people who use your website. I'm so sorry that making this point offends you.

[thrace]

5 hours ago, Daedalusxxx said:

In my experience you'll have to get your hands dirty at some point to get exactly what you want. 

Absolutely no. The point I have made is that the majority of content still being created doesn't actually work properly in the game for most users. The result will not be 99% of them becoming modders, it will be 99% of users going elsewhere.

[HDiddy]

4 hours ago, thrace said:

As I have said - addons often do not fit default bodies. Spending forever working the morphs out, and then reloading them every time I open a new game is a chore I could do without. That I would wager is the situation for many people who use your website. I'm so sorry that making this point offends you.

No offense at all. I love a good debate. That said, I make mods for myself and not for you or anyone else. If I actually fulfill a request it is because I personally wanted the mod for myself. I have turned down many folks ask for me to make something because, I honestly had no need or use for what they wanted me to make.  Now what I do try to do for the community is offer detailed help on how to mod and make things.  Remember the primary focus of this site was always a modding community, not a TK17 content distribution network which basically was the core focus of MG.  We have said this from the very start and that focus has not changed, People have choices and they can do with them as they please.  If adjusting a slider is too much work for you or anyone else, as I said before that is more of an issue for you based on your preferred way of using the game.  Making it a community issue is a stretch because this really a personal problem on your side. 

 

4 hours ago, thrace said:

Absolutely no. The point I have made is that the majority of content still being created doesn't actually work properly in the game for most users. The result will not be 99% of them becoming modders, it will be 99% of users going elsewhere.

@Daedalusxxx is absolutely correct.  If you want something specific you ultimately will have to do it yourself. Tutorials on how to create mods are available for anyone to dig deep into, and all of us modders are here to help when people get stuck. The point you have made is simply your opinion based on your wanted preferences that you are projecting to the rest of the community. Thus, making it some sort of problem. 

What does, "....doesn't actually work properly in the game for most users" actually mean? How do you know the opinions of most users of the community after only being here for 2 months? Did I miss some poll? If it does not work properly, how is it supposed to work? Please educate us.  Also, how does this tie to 99% of community members not becoming modders? What is the connection here?  Are you saying people will not become modders because addons are not built for the default body? Maybe I am interpreting this wrong. And finally...go elsewhere?   Sure people can do that, no one is forcing people to stay here.

Let's be real.  This community exclusively supports VX.  The core tent pole feature of VX were morphs.  If you are saying modders using these features to extend addons for more compatibility across a larger array of shapes and bodies some how equates to the game not working properly for most users. Well, I guess we have bamboozled everyone.  Maybe we all should of just stayed on v7.5.  To add to this point, if the majority of the community had issues with @Euphie only using FBV2, @Smoke using Default with adjustment morphs, or myself using FBV2 with body sliders.  We would know because for 1) people will not download our content, 2) People will freely let us know in the comments and peronal messages asking  to make things for the default body, and it will happen consistently.  Well addons with morphs and more options statistically get more love than those without.  Don't believe me? We have the data to back it up. Also, when people ask for things...you know what people do ask us for?  They ask for even more adjustment morphs to different bodies, they ask for PE Morphs if we didn't include them, they ask for static option morphs.....they ask for new addons to be remade.....with...yep....morphs.

Hey...in the end I can't control how you feel about one thing or another, but simply put....

 

[Smoke]

16 hours ago, thrace said:

I've never used xmorph, as I could see it was a mass of options that would overwhelm. But then I'm for simplicity.

That is good, 1 less issue to not be worried about lol

 

16 hours ago, thrace said:

As I've said I appreciate the innovations that have been made, people are really working their socks off. But I've found those innovations to be largely counterproductive for me. For instance, if I understand it correctly, xbody has no support for anything beyond male and female. Also, I don't really want to mess about with sliders to get things back to default. Messing with bodies also messes up my poses, and I don't want to have to reload morph settings on every new screen. It's just too much faff.

I realise that this thread could be seen as a moan. To an extent it is - but not one that is intended to piss on the chips of the very dedicated people and their creations, more a note from me saying that damn! those addons look great... shame I won't be able to use them!

Some what confused by what you mean, xbody has no support for anything beyond male and female? are you suggesting shemale/futa? I'm pretty sure it will work for that body, I'm certain Loki is uses xbody for his shemale models.

But Xbody is really simple to use. I understand certain things may look overwhelming on paper, but putting it into use, there is really nothing that is really hard about it. You say simplicity and its pretty simple IMO. Put it this way, if you managed and are able to use Hook5, than this should be a breeze.

Here, check out these simple gif/videos demonstrating KE customization morphs.

https://www.klubexile.com/videos/view-598-ke-morphs-v1/

and/or

https://www.klubexile.com/videos/view-599-ke-morphs-v2/

5 hours ago, thrace said:

As I have said - addons often do not fit default bodies. Spending forever working the morphs out, and then reloading them every time I open a new game is a chore I could do without. That I would wager is the situation for many people who use your website. I'm so sorry that making this point offends you.

IMO this is not something that offends. Understand, we have tried being helpful as possible. So perhaps we sometimes sound annoyed but that is because we have said certain things many times and having to say something for the 100th time, gets annoying.

To elaborate. We have issues with a certain group. We tried working together. But they never wanted to meet in the middle. We decided to move forward and do our own thing. I get it, some people don't want to listen/read the bs drama but then again, we are gonna be here having to read these little complaints.

But, some in KE admin have been wronged by them. Hell I've been wronged by them. But we all opted to move forward and do our own thing. So when we said we were gonna "repack" the game and/or certain GUI elements, some people start preaching that we are "stealing their work". Where in reality we were just trying to make a version in which people will be able to use with ease or that is easy on the eyes (I mean, common - the default vanilla loading screen will make your eyes bleed. And MG is dead - no point on using a dead battle cry "we are nowhere, we are everwhere, we are legion, we are team TK17") Aside from creating our little repacks, some decided to use FBV2 as their "default"(go to body). One can view these moves annoying but if they told use that we are a bunch of nobodies, well that was a chance to splinter off and become independent.

One critism that I have given @HDiddy is his generosity. Some Request something and he'll make. But as I told him, Euphie, and others. Do you first. Never listen to others, weather they want to join you is their issue and never yours. But if HDiddy feels great on fulfilling such request, well - thats him lol  

[loki1968]

1 hour ago, Smoke said:

Some what confused by what you mean, xbody has no support for anything beyond male and female? are you suggesting shemale/futa? I'm pretty sure it will work for that body, I'm certain Loki is uses xbody for his shemale models.

But Xbody is really simple to use. I understand certain things may look overwhelming on paper, but putting it into use, there is really nothing that is really hard about it. You say simplicity and its pretty simple IMO. Put it this way, if you managed and are able to use Hook5, than this should be a breeze.

nope i'm using MrOllyK's shemale body from here https://www.klubexile.com/files/file/734-improved-v75vx-femaleshemale-body-meshes/

or Samm's shemale body from here https://www.klubexile.com/files/file/1415-realistic-shemale-by-samm/?tab=comments#comment-6700

XBody only works for females

[Smoke]

Just now, loki1968 said:

nope i'm using MrOllyK's shemale body from here https://www.klubexile.com/files/file/734-improved-v75vx-femaleshemale-body-meshes/

or Samm's shemale body from here https://www.klubexile.com/files/file/1415-realistic-shemale-by-samm/?tab=comments#comment-6700

XBody only works for females

Ah well, that clarifies that. Assuming that is what he meant.

I thought you used XBody, seeing that you used Euphie addons extensively.

[loki1968]

11 minutes ago, Smoke said:

Ah well, that clarifies that. Assuming that is what he meant.

I thought you used XBody, seeing that you used Euphie addons extensively.

I am using Xbody for my female models,doesn't thrace realise you can save the body morphs,takes like three seconds to load them

I also use your addons and HDiddy's extensively